A END OF THE COMMON SENSE AND GOOD DOGS. - Page 16

Abby Normal  legally the dogs are property. If you agree with it or not. But this is not what this is about. But if you want to go there. Nowhere have I said that you can use your property in  way which violates my rights. If someone is hurting a dog than such action  infringes on  my right of pursuit  of happiness.  Same as someone playing loud music on his stereo, or burning something and generating pollution or driving drunk his car and so on. Those action are infringing on my rights. However if  someone is using training equipment like e collar in proper way and the dog is obviously not in torturous distress  then nobody has the  right to tell to such person that s/he can not do it. 
Prager Hans

Hundmutter Trotsky  actually said that particular statement  in Petrograd in his speach in December 1917  That is an undeniable  historical fact  known to anybody who is educated in these matters. I have not learned this from right wing website as you say, I learned this  in Communist education in Czechoslovakia I was forced to undertake during my time in Charles's University in Prague which I attended to study science of Geology. Yes everybody was forced to study this crap. Even geologists.
This quote , which you question,  was written, for example,  in an article in Magazine of Molodaya Gvardiya, Moscow , No 6. 1991 page 55 . Do you know what Molodaya Gvardyia is? It is an organ of Komsomol. Do you know what Komsomol is? It as abbreviation of  Kommunisticheskii Soyuz Molodyozhi = Communist Union of Youth. That is  no right wing propaganda. 
Trotsky was  sadist and cynical maniac of the worse kind. There are pictures of Trotsky publicly  torturing women. I do not think these pictures would be allowed here. He ordered to execute children. He personally executed people for "educational purposes" in name of propaganda. He called it disciplinary executions. He was in charge of "Cheka" where he mercilessly"eliminated" enemies of revolution. 
I don't understand your  fondness for Trotsky shared by many Western leftists . The truth about Trotsky is that he was a brutal mass murderer. Trotsky was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people during the era of War Communism (1918-21]). Together with Lenin, Trotsky  (not Stalin) established the Gulag system, the secret police, and other major institutions of Soviet repression. Trotsky also played a leading role in engineering the first, abortive collectivization of Soviet agriculture - which led to a deliberately engineered famine that killed several million people in 1920-21. Richard Pipes' book Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime has a good discussion of Trotsky's role in these and other early Soviet atrocities.
Quote from
[Ilya Somin, August 11, 2009 at 8:50pm] 
A Small Positive Effect of Trotskyism
Hundmutter you are so much over your head here that it will serve you well if you heed my advice and stop saying that you are Trotskyite even if you are . Which I think you are not, but only do not know what you talking about. . 

 

Yes, I do want to go there as you brought it up.  I know that legally dogs are property, and there is a law that I don't agree with. And, as I stated slaves were once designated as such, as were wives and I hope that one day we will be enlightened enough to see that sentient companion animals should NOT be designated as such, thereby removing the rights of people to treat them and dispose of them how they see fit. We do try.....this is why there is animal welfare legislation - to prevent control, use, dispose of, or in any manner enjoy, their property without interference

If someone is hurting a dog than such action infringes on my right of pursuit of happiness.
No Hans, this is where you cannot have it both ways. Because it also infringes on someone else's 'liberty' where you say he can do what he wishes with his own property. If the dog is quietly starved to death, out of your view - how are you even to know? How is that affecting your 'pursuit of happiness' ?. Your argument does not hold up. Not at all. And what you perceive as infringing on your pursuit of happiness may not infringe on someone else's and so the animal is free to suffer at the will of the owner of the said 'property'. No that argument just doesn't hold up.

And there you are bringing in your caveats again....IF someone is using the collar property, and that the dog is obviously NOT in tortuous distress. Paul already blew this out of the water by saying that even if there was legislation brought in he would not report someone for such abuse. How many Paul's are there? Plenty!  What happens when 'heroes' like Paul     aren't going to give them a little 'talking to', but are just going to turn a blind eye instead? There are more of those I suspect, just like the fishermen.....  Especially in a 'close' group where people get to 'know' each other, you won't get many people wanting to cause that kind of aggravation. I've seen it happen too often. People with attitudes like that cause actions like bans to be the only effective solution sometimes, they actually bring it about.

Well, Hans, that's telling me, isn't it !  Look, despite my increasingly
reaching the 'ancient crone' stage, I am not quite old enough to have
been there, so I cannot say from personal experience whether you
are right or wrong;  and I do not claim to be any kind of scholar, or an
expert on Trotsky.

I do know however that there are others who are;  and that they have
pointed out that there is actually no hard evidence for that speech
having been said in those words, subject to the vagaries of translations
- which you and I have discussed in other matters ! - and that all political
speeches must be taken in the context of the times.

And I am aware - and must agree - that some of the terms Trotsky is
supposed to have used would have been extremely counter-productive
to what he was trying to achieve, in how they would have gone down with
those he was addressing.  Also that they would not have been a very
sympathetic 'fit' with other terminology he was known to have used in
speeches and documents around the same time, as well as later.

I also know that the words quoted have been widely circulated many times
by some extremely dodgy websites, with interesting agendas.

And it isn't as though there has never been a case of the opposition to a
political or philosophical position being creative with evidence in order to
blacken someone's name.

Likewise, all the actions you accuse him of being responsible for.
Now if 'your' version IS the absolute and irrevocable truth of the matter, I
DO agree with you that it is a wondrous strange thing that so many of us
'follow' Trotsky, if indeed he was such a monster.   There has to be more
to this ...  but I am so sorry, I really do not have time to persue it  further
at the moment, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on it/him.

Abby and Hundmutter, you are engaging in mission impossible. All you are going to get are more personal insults and belittling by the PDB bullies. Some responses to this thread really makes me wonder how the authors treat their own dogs.But, hey, they own them so can do as they please.
 

Blitzen - Makes me wonder too. Whether it's lining up the old 'get out of jail free card' if you know what I mean.

I know this is a lost cause LOL. I've walked away once..........I really DO have better things to do, especially when Trotsky gets involved

They have to have the last word, Abby.

That's OK They need it more than I do. I'm cool with it.

I too arrived at that same decision a few days ago. Discretion truly is the better part of valor.

Oh they can have the last word as far as I am concerned, too;
I wasn't planning to come back after my last post anyway.  As
I have been at pains to point out, t'was not I that ascribed any
political philosphy to our views on the e collar mishandlers &
what to do about them ... I dunno, maybe one should pretend
NOT to be a socialist when 'accused' of that crime ?  So much
for free speech and liberty,  heh ?    Doesn't this also run close to
a breach of TOS ?  [I also attempted to get that aspect switched
to Off Topic, but that didn't work.]