Drago vom Patriot - Page 16

I have no clue about Garys other males or how they produce, to me though Drago seems extra special in what he is producing and true only time will tell if the trend can continue into the sec., third, and fourth generations and beyond,but Drago is more than a current fad,trend,or hype to me he is a known PROVEN producer of high drive.I,ve done my research on him and have heard from both breeders that have used him and from puppy owners that have got pups out of him, besides all the vids that can be found  of him and pups on the internet. If you cant stand high drive get out of the kitchen !

JYL  I wanted to ask you for more details on your Ice,s whinning and vocalizing  that you mentioned,does he whine to get to you,to get out of a crate,kennel,to chase your cat or get to a ball, to do bitework or for any reason at any time ? can pm me also

Bundishep, Jyl will most likely not pm you she is not shy about her thoughts &  feelings. We will all be able to see her answers. 

Bundishep,

I will make a response tonight when I get home from work... I will respond on this thread..

Bundishep,

You asked "JYL  I wanted to ask you for more details on your Ice,s whinning and vocalizing  that you mentioned,does he whine to get to you,to get out of a crate,kennel,to chase your cat or get to a ball, to do bitework or for any reason at any time ? can pm me also

Ice will whine during feeding time.... not uncontrolably, but will let out several whines. He use to bark and do a scream/bark... but I correctly that right away and he longer does that. He will however whine when he gets excited... but that is to be expectly by looking at his pedigree. I will in no way reward him making ANY noise... if he whines I correct him and he will wait to eat until he is quiet.

He does not whine or vocalize to get to me or to get out of the crate. Ice is loose in the back yard during the day... the only reason he uses the kennel in the yard is for his water... that way the water stays clean. I have a kennel IF I need it, but have not used to lock Ice in it... the door is always open so he can go in and out when ever he wants. I also keep a couple bones and chew toys in there... he plays with those while I am at work. That way he doesnt destroy anything he shouldnt....lol. I am only gone for 4 hours at a time... as I can come home for lunch or dinner break.

He does NOT get a chance to chase the cat.... that is something that was made VERY clear from day one. I however do lock Ice in the crate when the cat is out as I will not take a chance of the cat getting hurt... as my cat does get the "zoomies" alot and that is way to much temptation for a high prey drive dog. Ice will whine a little bit when the cat goes zooming by his crate.... I give him a very firm "NO QUIET" and that usually works.

He will whine a little bit when I first get the ball or tug out.... but only once or twice.... again I will not engage him at ALL until he is quiet. He has learned that the "game" will not happen if he whines. As I will not reward any "leaking of drive". Ice does have high food drive as well but is quiet when I do OB with him. He has learned since I got him that the whinning does not get him ANYTHING. In fact in the beggining if he whinned I would go inside and close the door.... that is NOT what he wanted. So he has learned that whinning makes the "game" end really FAST.

Ice is very clear headed like his sire and dam... I do not consider the whinning anything but him leaking drive.. From some of the videos I have watched of Drago he does the same thing...both in OB and protection.  Drago is very clear headed in his work... he is just high drive and when overloaded will whine to release that drive. Ice does the same thing... I am sure with Ice as I continue the training and add more higher value rewards that I will have to work on the vocalizing... right now for OB I use mostly food.

I do not know if Ice's dam (Angel) whines/vocalizes... so that is something that OGBS will have to comment on.

As I mentioned before, I have not done any formal bitework with Ice... as he has had Pano alot as he has grown. So I can not comment on if he whines/vocalizes in this phase...

Hope this answers your questions.....

As a follow up to Jyl's post above:

"I do not know if Ice's dam (Angel) whines/vocalizes... so that is something that OGBS will have to comment on."

Nope, Angel is not a whiner and the only vocalization from her in any of the phases is if I ask my helper to get a little aggressive/fight with her in bitework training she will growl. She has a lot of natural aggression and this is a normal manifestation of that.

As for Ice's brother, Andy. I have said in the past that he vocalizes and I guess I should clarify this. Andy does not vocalize while training. As a puppy during the few bitework sessions we did with him he may have gotten a bit worked up and he would bark a little too rapidly, but, this was due to lack of maturity. Nothing to be concerned about and because he was showing such great natural ability in bitework we stopped doing that entirely. Instead of doing something that could screw him up while he's young, I chose to let him mature more mentally and will pick that up again later. Maybe in a few months. Andy's vocalization comes from a deep desire to be in the middle of everything anyone is doing at my house, human or dog. If he's in his crate and I let another dog outside he starts making noise. If I am playing with another dog and he can't be involved in it then he will bark or carry on a bit in another way. The same as Ice, Andy will vocalize when I am getting food ready for my dogs. To counter this, as Jyl does, I don't feed Andy until he is quiet. Or, I get the food ready for my dogs while Andy is outside. Andy will also bark agressively in his crate in my vehicle if I get his mother out of her crate at training. Again, he's just pissed off that he isn't the one getting to do something. The only other vocalization from Andy is in the morning when he wakes up and needs to go out. I can't blame him for this. I'd rather get up a little early than to have to clean his crate.

Thanks for both post from JYL and OGBS and yes it helps me understand alot better,nice decription calling it leaking drive,  to my mind I considered it a type of feedback whine or bark of having  high drive,not always a bad thing to have, wether a bark,a growl or a whine it gives the trainer an idea and feedback whats going through a dogs head so that one can adjust the training accordingly and very nice not to be rewarding at dog for the wrong reasons or at the wrong time depending on what the dog is doing at the moment,there is  one vid that still sticks in my mind of a young Drago pup I,m seen somewhere, seems like it was a vid taken in Europe of a pup tied off and its fast, constant, repeating barks and growls to get to a rag. And who wouldnt want a dog to bark to get out of their crate if they have to pee or poop.

My last WG workingline male had alot of prey drive and would "scream" when he first started barking at the decoy. I did mostly personal protection work with him.. as I used him for security work. He was protection/narcotics trained. I trained him from 9 months old. When I would alert on either a suspect or the decoy he would "scream" and then the first couple barks would be the high prey squeeky barks and then he would settle into nice rythmic deep barks. This dog, Bruno, had very nice natural aggression too... he would bring the fight and was a joy to work. He also had the "off" switch and made a very nice house dog.

Ice does have alot of prey drive.... But as I mentioned before he is clear headed. I have not seen any nerve issues with Ice so far, and I do not think I will.. When I play tug with the bitewedge with Ice he will make eye contact with me and then head shake the toy while it is in my hand.. he is silent when doing that.... there is no whine or growl..He just shakes the prey object to KILL it...lol. When I am able to start doing bitework with Ice I will make sure that I work on capping his drives.... That way he doesnt leak the drive... he will learn to hold it and then when ready channel all the drive straight into the helper.  I personally do not mind if a dog growls on the sleeve in certain situations... for instance on the stick hits or when the helper puts pressure on the dog... as long as the grips do not change or the dog becomes munchy on the sleeve.

Jyl, along with Drago I,ve heard you say that you like the Rush dog, do you have an opinion on Quardes ? Do you like other males in america that in your opinion are very breed worthy ?.Also I have never used chilled or frozen sperm before,I would be very interested in hearing about details on that for thoses that have used top studs that they like in Europe as far as shipping sperm goes and if thoses that have done it  if they have had good or bad experiances in doing so,are there Kennels in Europe that are easy to work with for shippng sperm or is the whole thing a hugh nightmare as far as getting AKC paperwork completed and dealing with European Kennels ?

Bundishep,

I will respond when I get home from work tonight.. as I am just on lunch right now.