Ursus Batu, Yasko Farbenspiel, Larus Batu - Page 2

The judges don't always get it right with the VA dogs, for example, Larus. Keep in mind that the female contributes half the genes too and some lines don't mix well. 

Stand up for the breed how, Gustav? Looks to me like it's the judges and the big name breeders who caused the problem and what can anyone do about that? Yes, the German showlines are bottlenecked just like the American lines. The individual breeder can search out the less used lines. I liked Ursus but I'm not defending the overwhelming use of him in practically every bloodline, just like Jeck before him. So what is your remedy for the problem?

Posting a 'bump' to see if it will allow me to see the new post in this thread....

Bump

I have inserted an updated editor.  The image upload is having problems but I'm working on that.

Sometimes the text simply dissapears if its very large. Problem at the editors end which I have been unable to fix.

So, the female contributes half the genes...how is that going to help if her pedigree contains almost exactly the same dogs as the male's?

I challenge you to find a German showline pedigree that is totally free of Ursus...or, harder yet, Palme v. Wildsteiger Land, Uran and Quando. Palme appears 9 times in my bitch's 7 generation pedigree, and Uran 8. That's even worse than Lance and Zeus of Fran-Jo in the American side of her pedigree! (Okay, these dogs are further back in the pedigree than the German dogs. I had to go to her grand-dam's pedigree to find them. Still, there's much more variability back there, including some very good German dogs, like Falko v. Celler Schloss.)

As for what happens in the showring, it's like with the American showlines: if you try to show something that's slightly different from what the judges have been giving the ribbons to, you will find yourself at the back of the class.The average breeder/show person has very little say in what is going on at the management level of either the SV or the GSDC. Those that DO have influence think the current style of dog being shown is the ULTIMATE German Shepherd, and see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Videx can correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Actually, this is one time I'd love to be proven wrong....

 

SUNSILVER: That is your opinion, I assume based on your experience, however I would point out that every large membership based organisation, that is run democratically requires a heirarchy. The heirarchy will sometimes appear like controllers and dictators, and one thing that is absolute in any democracy is "YOU CANNOT PLEASE EVERYBODY". You can also be sure that different people want influential positions for different reasons, and some will be largely selfish. The SV and other major GSD organisations can never be perfect, we can only hope we elect the best and live with it until we think we need changes, and hope any changes are for the better.

Videx, do you think change is needed?

When judges are being accused of putting up certain dogs in return for a percentage of stud fees, it certainly sounds like change is needed.

What about the overall anatomy of the VA dogs? What weaknesses do you (and others) see that need to be addressed?

What are your feelings on Jantie's critiques of the German show dogs?

 Gustav,

 

As usual,  you  are absolutely correct.  The one thing that you  overlooked, though, is the total lack of incentive in the show camp to make any change. Or, rather, the distinct disincentive:  MONEY.

In my observations, Sunsilver is right about trying to gain any traction by breeding and showing dogs closer to the "look", ability  and temperament prevalent back in the, say, 1950s or 1960s. This is the time when most people who even care to think about such things believe that the GSD was basically "one dog" no matter the country in which he was bred. If you try to bring a dog like that into an American, German or probably any other showring you already know in advance that you aren't going to win or place.

So I guess it comes down to how to dislodge the people "at the top" of the breed who caused this mess. Those involved in the parent clubs in various countries know who they are. But they are entrenched in their positions. They can be voted out in some cases, but it isn't easy or quick since they have their supporters who step into place and advance their ideals. It isn't like American politics where we lurch right for 4 or 8 years, then left for another 4 or 8 and then back again.  We didn't get here overnight and we aren't going to get out of it any time soon, IMO. All a member can do is keep on voting for the best of the lot and if you breed, then breed for the dog you want to get back to and damn the show trophies and titles. I don't know if this is a winning strategy or not. Of course, in time those at the top will die and be replaced for better or worse.

Anyone got any better ideas?

Well, Helmut Raiser started his own club....

I heard that the GSDCA tried to change the breed standard at one point, so it was closer to the FCI standard, but the motion was defeated. Even though the chage was a small one (wish I knew just what it was, but the person being interview [Jimmy Moses] didn't say) the membership responded as if the standard was being changed to 'full out German', and voted it down.

As Mystere points out, it's 'money money money that makes the world go round' [sorry, channeling Cabaret today...] so there is little if any motivation for change.

I do know some breeders who breed the sort of dogs THEY like, and show only in performance events, and now and then enroll in a conformation class or two, just so the show people don't forget there ARE other GSD's out there that don't walk like cripples.... 

[sigh] Gonna go walk the pooches. This is just too depressing...