SV to Reinstate Long Coats in 2010 - Page 5

No dog will grow a LONGER coat than it is genetically programmed to grow period. The length is not influenced by climate.  However, the thickness of the coat is.

hmmm.  Some points to ponder.

There are many long haired dogs living outside 24/7 in extremely cold weather.

The "standard and qualifications" currently used to decide if a GSD qualifies for breeding, have little to nothing to do with sheep herding.

A long coat GSD, IMO, is an absolutely beautiful animal, better looking than a normal coat GSD.

A long coat does not preclude a GSD from performing as well as a normal coat, in police work, military work, nor any other work, even tending sheep.

There are many things in life that are not condoned because it "would appear" that it would be a problem, but has not actually "proved" to be a problem.  It is human assumption often, that decides what should be or should not be "done".  Take for instance the flying ability of the bee, or the basketball playing ability of Spud Webb, who was 5'7" and won an NBA slam dunking contest.  Yes, one could argue that Spud Webb was an exception, but the bee is not, yet on paper, both would and have been shown to be not what one would want for their respective "jobs".

I would like to know from someone who raises wolves, coyotes, or any other wild type of species, whether or not their coats are different from a Long Coated GSD, and if so, how they differentiate?  I understand that there are LC's with and without a proper undercoat, but all long coats are currently refrained from breeding.

I lived in Cleveland, Ohio for about 30 years, near Lake Erie, and the winters there could be tough.  May not compare with other locations in the world though, but I have seen log coated GSD's living staked out there, and they did not seem to suffer anymore than normal coated GSD's, and in fact, seemed to weather (pun intended) better than the normal coats.  Is is a shame that they wre staked though, but that is another thread.

One more point to ponder.  If someone states that long coats should not be bred, then it should also be said that any normal coats that are bred and produce long coats, should not be bred.  Almost every line of GSD's produces some long coats.  Is that nature trying to correct us, or bad early breedings by the SV?

DoRight, did those long coats have soft coats with no undercoat? I'll bet not. Did they have shelter?

I'm not quite sure why this has turned out to be so difficult. Either a long coat has a weather resistant coat - harsh guardhairs with a thick wooly undercoat - or it doesn't.  If the SV allows LSC's (or whatever you call them) back in, then undercoat and coat texture is sure to be the deciding factor when it comes time for the breed survey. Those with long soft coats and no undercoat will not get a breed survey or maybe I should say they shouldn't be eligible for a breed survey. Those with  undercoat and harsh guardhairs will be eligible for that KKL rating. There is a lot of wiggle room here for the judges to interject their own personal interpretation as to what and what is not a correct long coat.  We can't agree here, why would they? I can see a big problem with that.

Another thing to ponder, the DNA long coat test is sometimes negative for a dog's being a coat, instead the dog will be identified as a carrier although these dogs look phenotypically like long coats. In theory you could breed 2 of these dogs together and get a litter with stockhairs. You can't always tell which dogs are genetic coats just by looking at them. Maybe the SV should think about requiring DNA on dogs prior to their breed surveys? Maybe not............

Well, as I understand it.  ALL long coats, regardless of undercoat thickness or whatever, and regardless of where they live or if they have shelter or not, all are frowned upon for breeding under current SV and other organizations rules.  If I am wrong, please do correct me.  As has been stated, many can not tell a plush coat from a long coat, and it is subject to personal and political interpretation.

I am not arguing that long coats should be considered disirable.  To each his own in that regard.  Same goes for whites.  My stance is, as yours also seems to be Blitzen. that the judges are the problem.  Everyone seems to agree on that.  Why do they just issue a blanket prohibition against this or that, without taking the whole dog into consideration?  Unless of course, it is a dog belong to someone in "the click".  Some things of course are abviously undisirable, such as having five legs or three eyes, but some things such as coat color, size, and length of air, should be considered in the context of the whole dog.  Why is a black GSD okay, but not a white?  Why is a sable GSD okay, when the sought after coat has been tan with a black sadle?  Why is a cm too long so wrong, when there are (as we all know) dogs being forgiven for bad elbows, etc) (VA 1's even)?

In my humble opinion, the whole dog should be taken into consideration for KKL.  Would a completely tan GSD be prohibited from KKL by the SV, if the dog was the "schitz" in every other aspect?

Lest I be trashed, I want to make it clear that I am going to do with the breed as I see fit, and not as someone else sees fit.  My dogs are my dogs.  My home is my home.  If I want to paint my home hot pink, I will do so.  If I want to breed long hair GSD's (of which I have none), then I will do so.  Obeying the rules of the SV, GSDCA, USA, or whomever, in the regard of breeding dogs, is akin to obeying the wishes of the Democratic or Repliblican political parties and voting for whom they want me to vote for.  Ain't gonna happen.  If I am a Republican and "they" tell me to vote for McCain, and I don't agree or like McCain, I will vote for who I do likje or agree with.  Same with breeding dogs.  I will breed what "I" think will produce what "I" want.  This is the way that most people in the world think.  It is a small and select few that think otherwise.  Yes, I follow the standard as a guide, but not to the point that I would exclude a dog because of a silly centimeter to tall.  I would not exclude a dog with a long coat if the dog was exceptional.  The rules would.

TIG:  It is my understanding,  LSCs are still registered with the SV, and can be bred and their offspring are also registered with the SV, they just aren't eligible for a breed survey so the offspring has white papers, not pink papers; however, those offspring that have normal coats are eligible for breed survey and should they obtain one, their offspring then receive the coveted pink papers.

My point being, LSC have not been removed from breeding so there is no loss of genetic diversity.  Even if they were removed completely, the litter mates of the LSCs with normal coats are eligible for breed surveys and so there is no loss of genetic diversity.

Personally I think the LSC dogs are good looking dogs.  Having not had the pleasure of owning one I only know that my friends that have them say they are more trouble when it rains,  they have to be brushed regularly to avoid mats, and they bring a lot of "souvenirs" (twigs, sticks, leaves, grass) into the house  after a walk in the great outdoors!

DoRight, IMHO, the standard should always take precedence over personal likes and dislikes.  In that sense I really don't have a problem with the SV telling me what is breed worthy, what not.  If I wanted to breed GSD's I'd not start out with a dog with a long coat or any other fault that would DQ it from obtaining a KKL or a V rating. 

Blitzen.  I agree with that.  I had some sarcasm in my previous posting.  But not a lot.

Just like in homing pigeons or anything else, you start out with the best you can obtain.  Then you go from there.

To be honest about it, I (and apparently many others) can not tell a long coat from a plush coat, or a coat that is too long vs one that is not too long.  I do not have enough experience to do so.  I am also sure that of those with a lot of experience, there will be disagreements on those things.  There are hundreds of postings on this site concerning these things and there are dozens of differing opinions.  So, what is one supposed to do?  Ask the experts.  As happens many times In our judicial and civil trial systems, one expert will say this and one will say that, about whatever is the subject.

I would not have a problem with an independent body, coming to my home and checking out my dogs, prior to me breeding them, for their evaulation as to if they are breed worthy.  What I would have a problem with, is if they come and look at my dogs and say that she is too large or that his hair is too long, or that t6he dog is untitled, and that is that.  Without checking out anything else concerning the dog.  The standard should and is a GUIDE, not a law.  There are exceptions in everything.  Even murder.  You can not just say that because you murdered someone that you must pay the highest penalty.  Some pay it, some pay none.

Breeding dogs is not any different.  You should not tell someone that they should not breed their dog because of this or that, without taking the whole dog into consideration.  Not just its coat length.  After all, what is a silly centimeter in coat length?  Three cm's?  6 cm's?    Nothing in the bg scheme of things.

And, they look magnificent.  There ain't much herding going on.  Yes, some, but even Capt. Stephanitz knew better, and that is why he switched to other fields of work.  The GSD of today is not sleeping outside in freezing temps any more than mixed breed dogs or all kinds.  Short and long hair.

We can agree to disagree, again.  That is why there is chocolate, vanilla and strawberry ice cream.

We will all have to wait and see what the SV decides.  It seems like every once in a while, we hear about the SV reconsidering it's postion about long stock coats.   

Blitzen, Please stop and read carefully because it seems you either can not understand or choose not to understand several things clearly stated.

1. We are not and have not been talking about dogs with LONG SOFT COATS WITH NO UNDERCOAT. I noted above that those have been rejected right from the beginning.  A SLC (i.e. one WITH undercoat) is not necessarily a soft coat. Plus there is a great variation in "coats" and many defined as coats merely have ear tuffs or leg feathers and do NOT have the fine hair between the feet that you think is so disastrous.

2. We are not talking about dogs herding sheep in the Artic. Don't think they have too many flocks up there.

3. (a) Why do you deny the experience of  people who live and work in the environment that you are claiming is so fatal to these dogs? ( i.e. Europe or Northern U.S. below the Canadian border)  (b). Have you ever herded and (c) have you ever herded with a SLC?  I can answer yes to all those.

4. German flocks are barned (i.e. put in the barn) for the night. They are not out 24/7!!!  That is not their system.

5. If you think coated dogs do not work sheep in Germany I refer you to the following - Capt Max's book with pictures of dogs herding in Germany at the turn of the century and the dogs known as Altdeutscher Schaeferhund who do the day to day herding in Germany TODAY.  Unfortunately the latter name has been somewhat co-opted by the long coat fancy since the ban on coats but  some research can pull up sites related to actual shepherds' dogs. The pictures I've seen resemble what we always called an old farm collie ( wh/ incidently is what many SLC GSDs look like and why they are labeled Shepherd Collie crosses in shelters).  Here is one site pulling from original German sources and created before the ban on coats. www.geocities.com/heartland/ranch/5093/oldgsd.html  Here is another link  - please try to deny this -  www.ig-westerwaelder-kuhund.de   - notice the rather woolly dog on the page describing type and under history the description of "calling out " the villagers stock to be taken to the grazing fields. Another http://www.herdingontheweb.com/english.htm  . Don't you just love the long coat white (see my reference re 1938 standard change)? And the best for the last http://www.altdeutschehuetehunde.de/ . I suggest you use babblefish if you don't read German. If you go to the Die Hütehundschläge page as well as pictures showing different types ( some with very soft looking coats) you will note that one of their requirements for these dogs is Wetterfestigkeit or weather resistant and YET and YET these are all coated dogs living and WORKING in Germany. HMMM.

Steve said that it doesn't matter if the long coat is soft or not. I was responding to him

No snow in Germany either? Not even in the early 1900's when the breed was being developed?  You're going to not believe this either, but the colder the temps the better chance a dog with a long soft coat has of surviving in a snow storm. The warmer temps are a lot harder on soft coats. I never said there were sheep in the arctic, but there are dogs there that tend. I stated my experience is with dogs in the arctic where long coats die or are killed. Why would you think that tending in a snow storm in Germany would be any less hazardous to a dog? Again , you are just not comparing apples to apples.  

Are there shepherds here from the turn of the century who worked their dogs in Germany when the standard was generated.?All I see here are posts from people who breed and own long coats and who keep their dogs inside the house or in kennels. I am not talking about modern dogs, TIG.  I guess I'm not making myself clear clear? No, I have never tended with a dog anywhere. I have however worked dogs in all sorts of weather as have many of my friends and they all have excluded dogs with long soft coats from their breeding programs. They proved to be just too much grooming and maintenance in all weather conditions. Burrs, mats, ice balls, heat stroke, staying wet too long.  Let's just assume for a minute that it never snows anywhere in Germany, never has. How do you think a dog with a long soft coat would fare in the rain?  It does rain there, doesn't it?

I think you had better do some reading on tending in the late 1800's, early 1900's. It was significantly different then. Dogs were out for days with their flocks as the farmers owned much larger properties at that time. Now the average sheep farm is around 10 acres, so certainly the modern dogs get to sleep inside the barn at night.  Read Ulf Kintzel's articles; he is a professonal shepherd from Germany now living in NY. PM him and ask him if he ever tended with a dog with a long soft coat.

http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/sh-articles.html

5. I will look at the links you listed.

I understand what I see and read just as well as you, TIG. I haven't challenged your intelligence or suggested you have comprehension issues becasue we don't agree.  You are talking about modern dogs and obviously own and breed longcoats yourself. I am talking about dogs of the past and why dogs with LONG SOFT coats were eliminated by the SV. Why do YOU think the SV doesn't allow them anymore?