Lift versus Out. - Page 5

Yikes sorry, didn't realize that got posted that question was not for this thread. Was trying to save thoughts on a used note pad for later … Coffee first I guess.

Totally agree except that dogs or puppies are stressed so simply and absolutely. The automatic's is what Im referring to here. Automatically only. Haz can speak for himself but I can take the technique, and similary, have and most if not all of my dogs will not automatically view ME as in conflict. Its just a game.

I don't train most this way, I want the dog like you stated to deal with. and overcome if, and push the aggression into the helper. I just believe theres more grey area here to work in.

I have never seen this absolute rule from within the pack ever, and I dont think anyone else ever has either. Puppies to adults, spare, fight, play and tug in play or training without, in most all instances, creating stress or conflict between each other. Its just games.

Why is it then an absolute, that Im not able to blank my dog in training/play without the dog viewing me as the stressor and not the action? Whats changing? Im not nit picking here.  If the dog is viewing this as a game tug, lifts, even stick hits, from me a pack member in play, it is a game, and thus not stress then handler conflict in my mind and my dogs mind more importantly.

It's a s stressor when it comes through the leash. Playing with a tug is not necessarily a stressor.it can be if done wrong.

The leash makes it a stressor because it causes confusion.The leash is used for guidance and direction control from a very early age. The puppy learns to comply with it, at least we hope they do.then you want to add in the technique of pulling on the leash and teaching them to fight against it.

Tell you what, you drive on the right side of the road until I tell you and then you are too drive on the left side of the road. Your changing up the use and understanding of the equipment that much. Look at the video of Carly. In a driven adult dog it causes him too come off the sleeve and avoid his handler.

You will also create insecurity in the dog because there must be a reason you are pulling him away from what he want s. This is why it's not opposition reflex. It is perceived as a correction and a conflict to out the dog because sooner or later you take it away from him in this position.

Correct application of the opposition reflex is the pulling off the object from the dog.you pull and he will pull back in opposition to you. Pulling on his leash in a perfect application may have him push back through the leash but who cares about that? We want the improvement in grip. Pulling the leash up into a lift isn't going to teach that.

BZCZ said: Your lifting procedure applies Pavlov's opposition reflex incorrectly.  That's what leads to all the negative consequences

My lifting procedure? I do not do lifting in training.  I am just explaining what is going on the video since you do not have any idea  and keep asking me.  Just a  few posts ago you Had no idea that there is opposition reflex and now you are expert on it. Oh well. 

Prager Hans

BZCZ  said: 

Too Many outs will NOT weaken the bite, IF the dog is trained correctly.

A dog trained correctly in the out will not drop in grip strength from too many outs but he can start to anticipate them and come off too fast for max points.  Easy enough to prevent through training.

aTraining too many  outs most definitelly will weaken a potential for a bestronger bite. The wording  "too many "  and word "corectly" are in  direct oposition and are contradictory. 

bzcz SAID Trained your way with the conflict inherent in your lifting procedure, I can see why you think that but it is not universally true.  It is a byproduct of the pressure that the handler is putting on the dog from the lift.

ONE more Time you have no clue how I I do not lift dogs . Where did you get that idea?  train 

bzcz said:A dog trained correctly in the out will not drop in grip strength from too many outs but he can start to anticipate them and come off too fast for max points.  Easy enough to prevent through training.

Jeez sounds like what I said!!!!!! 

 Prager Hans

Haz Said:I have personally seen the lift used a lot for outing, which I personally dont like.  I have never taught the out like that. 

  I'll say it one more time - lifting of the dog is not teaching it to out! As you said later correctly it increases the force  and resolve to hold on.  That is regardless of what BZCZ says. 

Your aproach is correct. 

BZCZ so the only correct way is your way?   So let me ask you some questions and see what is correct.

So when the puppy pulls on the toy one way  and you pull on the toy the other way. Or when the handler is pulling on the leash the other way while the pup is truiong to hold on the toy in the helper who is pulling the other way. Is that incorrect? Of course not! It is correct!  And if the pup looses it's grip on the  toy because he is not holding it hard enough. What is the pup going to do next time?-> Hold it  harder with more resolve. There is nothing " incorrect" about that statement either. Any 1/2 ass trainer knows that. It is  undeniable fact if the pup has enough prey drive. 

Thus the same is truth with lifting of  the dog.  It plainly does not matter if you pull on the dog  upwards and sleeve down or away  or toy upwards or horizontally same as it does not matter as long as you  you pull the dog  away in a opposite direction   from a toy or sleeve. If you pull the dog and object it bites in opposite direction then  will bite harder.   Why ? There is these reasons:

1/opposition reflex.

2/ possessive instinct to keep the prey. This is a natural Instinct which is inherited and such behavior is genetically predisposed. 

Thus to refine this into simple statement ,.... if the dog grips and you are trying to pull him away from the object of his grip - then  he will grip harder and with more intensite y and resolve.  

 Yes it generates a conflict.  Conflict is that the dog worries that he may lose his prey. Thus he bites harder and with more resove. How you can deny that?!? Is that because you need to disagree with me? 

. 

fyi I have fancy set of scars on my left arm from a 150lb Great Pyrenees who about 35 years ago nailed me on my forearm and the owner was trying to pull the sucker off my arm. That caused him to rip nice about 4 inches long parallel rips, exposing inner design of the  top of my forearm.   This was going on for a little while . And you  know  what stopped it? I told the owner:"STOP PULLING on the leash away from me.  BY DOING SO THE DOG IS GRIPPING HARDER!!! And indeed when the handler/owner stopped pulling,.... the dog let go. 

 There you go. 

 Prager Hans

Enough dealing with this crap.

You can't teach stupid.  DO it your way so we continue to see half assed grips and dogs falling off of the grip and you denying any of it happens.

Of course your way is perfect.  Carly never fell off of the sleeve.

Denial must be a fun place to live.  No wonder you won't trial, you can't hide your training from the third eye of the judge.

Put it on the field.  I've asked multiple times for videos showing your "technique" and I use the term very loosely.  Bottom line is there aren't any because it doesn't work.  BTW I've known how to correctly apply Pavlovs theories for over 20 years.  You however should reread his work. 

You keep dancing around about what a trainer you are.  Put. it. on. the. field.  All done talking.  Prove it.

Slamdunc had a great video that showed the proper use  of oppositional reflex in training. It would have been perfect for this thread. 

BZCZ LOL Now that is truly  funny. You ask me for videos? What about YOUR videos? Are you going to show us?  What about you competing? What about yopu calling known facts "crap".  What about you answering my questions? YOU NEVER DO. You can't and keep maintaining your point.  What about you stop calling me stupid just because  I disagree with your training explanations? What about you  insulting people on international forum...people you do not even know?    I actually do not think that you even read my posts, that is since it is not possible that person would keep asking same questions which I have already   ANSWERED n-TIMES and making same points about me which I answered N- TIMES.  All you want is to fight and to have last word.  I have already addressed  all your points from your last post. As far as competing, since you asked ...In 2005 or what ever year it was- I just do not care so much-  I was 2nd in PSA nationals open. I am not interested in sport as a means to  feed my ego. I do sport to learn about me, dog and training and to have fun,  meat great people, and not to proof to you or to anyone anything.    And no, my way of training  is not perfect because in comparison to you,  I  know that there is no perfect way. FYI:  I train real working dogs for real S&R and for real LE and for real people. THAT   is what WORKING DOGS  are for . They were not created for sport. 

 Prager Hans

yeah i've seen the videos you post of real working dogs.  I'll stack mine against yours everyday.  Twice on sundays.

IF you had happen to read my posts (obviously you haven't because you are so busy spinning around the issues), I said I was working on getting videos a couple of days ago and I already posted that I hope to video tonite.

My videos will be current with regular dogs.  Not cherry picked individuals that you didn't even train (where are those videos btw).  I did the helperwork on these dogs and I'll be in the video doing it.  Good or bad it will be a reflection of my training.

Not all my typing from behind a monitor talking about concepts that I don't understand and don't know how to implement.

JUst for kicks.  Where again are the videos showing that the "lift" works as advertised?  I've only asked 5 or 6 times and gotten no response from you. WHat about Carly falling off of the sleeve?  What about the young dog who is clearly fixated on only the arms for gripping?  You know, the one you have to crack the whip off screen to get him started barking at the start of the video? 

My "sport" dogs will put your working dogs to shame.  They know how to fight and are committed to the grip and they don't need a sleeve to do it.  Just as they don't need a yelling helper to stimulate them into work.  And they know how to do a whole lot more than just run and bite.

Still waiting on any of your videos.  Mine are coming and then what will you do?