Does anyone no how INGODDS ALBERTS bitework? - Page 9

I watched the video and as a novice I see several faults. The foose was inadequate( did not look up at the handler) the courage test was almost a slip from the sleeve.  Other than that he was suffecient!

I don't consider a dog not staring at the handler like a zombie to be inadequate.  I consider the dog's near crawl in the fuss to be inadequate.

Attention can be shown in more ways than the dog staring upwards

Geesh, you guys are a tough bunch. You have much higher standards than I do that is for sure. I would suggest you take another long look at that video. Keep in mind this young lady is not a top schutzhund trainer either and precision in obedience is not the name of the game in assessing the dog’s total value.

By the way, this is VA Ghandi Arlett, one of the most famous showline German shepherd dogs in the world. If you don’t like what you see with him than maybe the working lines is more your cup of tea. To each his own I guess.

"By the way, this is VA Ghandi Arlett, one of the most famous showline German shepherd dogs in the world. If you don’t like what you see with him than maybe the working lines is more your cup of tea. To each his own I guess."

That is the problem, that dog was the top showline dog in germany.  The dog only shows marginal in the work and he was labled the top dog, that is some crap

I LIKED his bitework (much more than the other showlines).  He's nothing great when compared to a working line, but I DID appreciate him moving into the helper unlike many other showline dogs.

From the way I "go after" some of these dogs, I'm not sure anybody could tell I really like show lines....but work is still important to me too.  The dog's heeling was sad, and I believe that to be more training than genetic.  I believe this dog could have been happy in his work if he had been given the TIME to mature and learn properly instead of being rushed.

This is fast becoming a topic for another thread so I will sum up my thoughts here. Don’t get me wrong, I can appreciate all types of German shepherd dogs. I have both workingline and showline in my kennel. Each type has their strengths and weaknesses. To sum it up in a nutshell the Sieger shows take into account the dog as a whole whereas the Bundessieger shows takes into account just the working capabilities of the dogs. This has been discussed extensively on this board. Here is a thread the poster SchBabe started a while ago that you might find interesting.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/174845.html.

Deeswolf, You get it!! Everybody should go back and "slowly" read what she posted.......Why does the moon and the stars and the sun and the handler and the training and the helper have to be just right to get a showline dog that does adequate "work in terms of COURAGE and PROTECTION! These are german shepherds not Labrador retreivers. If any variable is not perfect we have these "reasons" why the dog looks and acts the way it does in performance exercises. People who subscribe to this pandering, are hurting the breed and really don't know what a true shepherd was created to be...JMO

One last thing about my post...if we continue to allow these excuses to prevail, then traits like resilency, determination, fearlessness, courage, and nobility, based on what the dog SHOULD represent, will be lost as we put things that don't promote these attributes at the top of the breeding list. And if that happens we will turn the dog into a spcimen in which the traits of "greatness" become so diminished that people look to other breeds to do German shepherd work. Now the operative question is whether this progression is "theory or fact "!!. Think about it in defining Albert's bitework!!!

I am going to disagree with the critiques posted above in regard to Ghandi's performance shown in that YouTube Video. I do not see a dog that has been trained with a lot of pressure. I see dog who is VERY much anticipating what he knows is going to come and is trying to keep himself in check. Isn't that part of what we train, when we actually train? If you do it right you are rewarded for the correct behavior with a bite. At the start line he was given a firm command to fuss, then he continued to check with the handler (you can clearly see that as he makes quick head checks to the handler) to see that he is where he is suppose to be, as they moved forward toward the blind. He wasn't all crouched down, his bottom jaw was not touching the ground, and he did not become sway back, he was trying to contain himself.

Did anyone notice the fight in the dog in the drive after the attack out of the blind? A full grip and the dog fought, he didn't go along for the ride, praying it would end so he could jump off the sleeve, sit there and look around for the handler who would save him. No he fought, he didn't go along for the ride.

Maybe the reason I see this performance differently is because I have a Ghandi daughter that I have raised, trained, handled and titled. I know her body language inside and out. I know when she is anticipating the coming bite, how she barely can contain herself in heeling in bitework. She is a dog with the happiest tail and it shows when she works, except in a back transport and in the heel to the blind. She really really really works hard to contain herself and as her partner I have to know what she needs to help her contain herself. Is it a firm command? an extra command? my body language?

There are very subtle differences between the posture of a dog that is anticipating a heavy correction and one that is holding their excitement in anticipation.

I do agree that the grip on the courage test was shallow, however, you will notice at the first opportunity, Ghandi adjusted his grip to a more full one.

I have read DeesWolf's post and for the most part agreed with all of it, but this is not the thread to have this discussion as the topic your aching to have, as I am as well, goes way beyond the scope of this thread.  I would love to have this discussion also Gustav and I promise you I will give it my best professional effort.  My stance on this topic will be that we should support the SV Sieger Show system in this country.

DeesWolf, I would invite you to start a new thread with the very important post you made earlier.  As a suggestion I would title it "The German shepherd dog in America".  And let's just get the cards on the table once and for all.

I just refuse to place the entire plight of the German shepherd dog in America squarely on the shoulder's of Ingodds Albert's bitework as that is not fair to him at all.

Updated Dec. 09, 2008 to add:  I am just now finding out Ghandi passed away last week.  This was truly a great dog that represented the breed with dignity.  He was definately one of my all-time favorites which is why I used his video in this thread as an example to show what a truly great German shepherd dog is suppose to be.  My deepest condolensces to the owners of this wonderful animal.