Eros, reclaiming your garentee - Page 3

Hi there and thank you very much "Grum Majestat" for your comment including contracts (nice website btw and nice dogs! Congrats.) @ Blitzen: Hi there. Question: What if you required "top show quality" and made that very clear at date of purchase and you end up with HD?

Hi Jantie I am sorry but your comments re the German guarantee law are not quite correct. In Germany a dog is considered a used item, not a new item. Even a puppy. The law applies differently to new and used items. You can sell a used item with known defects as long as you disclose them. For example, you can sell a car that has the engine blown out, note it in the sales contract, and the buyer cannot come back at you for wanting a new engine in that car. If you make a misleading statement when selling the item, then the law takes effect. But, if you sell a car and a regular maintenace item blows out the buyer is responsible. A seller cannot be expected a be responsible for a replacement if the item was not used or maintained properly. For example, a 60.000 mile warranty on a car, but you never bother to bring it in for regular check ups or do regular oil changes. If the car breaks down at 40.000 miles you will get nothing. In the case of a puppy things are handled a bit differently. I do not know where you got the above quotes from, I would be interested in their sources... When selling a pup, it will NOT be known at the time of sale if the pup will develop HD later in life, or other ailments. So the law does not apply here exactly. The average pup is sold healthy with no known defects at the time of sale. In case of HD for example, it is a well known fact, and the SV even states it on their own website, that HD is partly inherited, so genetic, and partily acquired (pup was overfed, undernourished, exercised too much too early or wrong type of exercise, neglected, had an accident, etc). The SV states 30% is genetic, 70% acquired. This fact lessens a sellers requirement to fully guarantee for such condition. The seller has no influence on what will be acquired once the pup leaves the sellers care. In addition, the seller or breeder has taken all necessary and known precaution to eliminate genetics as best as possible by breeding with only HD certified breeding stock, and that for generations upon generations now. Therefore in Germany your chances of winning a claim of product warranty on a pup developing HD is next to nil. Same goes for other ailments, since we are dealing with live beings here. Always providing the pup was healthy at the time of sale and there were no known defects at that time. cont...

cont... However, if you state a specific purpose at the time of sale - such as for show, sport or breeding, it could be argued that a pup that later develops HD will not be suitable for such purpose. You need a contract to prove that this was agreed upon at the time of purchase. Then you need to sue if the breeder does not live up to the guarantee and by the time you are done you have had more grief and money spent then to simply buy a new pup. If a specific purpuse was stated at the time of sale, and the pup cannot fulfill that purpose most ethical breeders will at least try to work with you, maybe you get a replacement pup, maybe one for less money. Communication is vital here. Huffing and puffing and bullying will usually put you in front of a closed door. Problem with the law is that with a pup the outcome of the "finished" product is uncertain at the time of sale. The law only takes effect with a pup if the pup was sold with a known defect that was already present at the time of sale, and such defect was kept from you at that time. If the defect was disclosed and you accepted it, then you are stuck with it, and anything that may develop later because of it. It is a different story if you buy an older dog. The older dog is already a finished product and you would usually specify what you want the dog for more clearly. If the dog has been purchased for a specific purpose it should fulfill that to a certain degree. In case of a car that is sold in driving condition but simply will not start then the purpose has not been fulfilled. In a show dog it does not automatically imply top Vs, does not even imply a V period. You can show a dog that is only G quality and therefore that purpuse has been fulfilled, in theory anyways. A3 hips still have their a-stamp, a 70 in C is still a passing score, and so on. So the law does protect, but only to a certain degree. You would also need a very specific contract in order to prove the purpose you claim has not been fulfilled. If a used item is sold as is or sold as seen, then you have no recourse later.

Jantie, You are not comparing apples to apples as far as I am understanding Eros' situation, you are talking about a show prospect. Eros paid a pet price, got a pet with a pet guarantee. Now he wants to just "switch" it off for another dog after having it around 8 months.

DH, I have minor disagreement with your legal interpretations but naught worth making a fuss over. I just like to note, although not a lawyer, that much is made here of formal written contracts etc, but that an enforceable agreement can readily exist without one - implied from circumstances or by common law principles(a duty of care, as you noted, being one), including price paid, letters, emails, verbal statements or what have you - albeit enforcement of terms may be more difficult!

letters and eMails are usually enough proof, but they have to be clear. Often they are missing the important bits, or the important issues have been discussed over the phone. Though verbal agreements are binding, they are hard to prove. In the end, buying a GSD or any dog is always an issue of trust. And, since dogs are living beings, people do have to accept that they will never be maintenance free, or that surprises may happen. Any dog can drop dead tomorrow for unknown reasons with no one to blame. It comes with the terretory. The warranty law in Germany, which actually applies to all EU countries, is supposed to protect from purchases where the seller has the serious intent to defraud the person buying the item. It hardly ever protects anyone from "such is life" situations. Cheers DH

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