Showlines with working ability and other question. - Page 1

 This has probably been discussed before, but I was hoping some of you may be able to refer me to some unbiased, educational information about the "showline" German Shepherd.

I'm looking for a good quality GSD with FUNCTIONAL structure and a good work ethic. I'm not looking for a sport dog, in fact I'm looking for a dog with a low defense drive in comparison to the modern "working-line" dog. I would be using this dog for herding and various other performance events (agility, flyball, OB, Rally-O...etc). If we were to dabble in ScH (and that's a big "if") we would prefer the dog to work primarily in prey drive. We may be interested in showing, but more then likely won't. We're not breeders, so the dog will NEVER be bred (I do rescue work when I need a puppy fix). The reason we're looking for this type of dog is for my son. Now before you jump me - no, we're not "giving him a puppy" but we would like for him to be able to get involved with doggy sports. We have workingline dogs (3) who we're handling in ScH (one is ScH 1, the other 3 and our older shep is not titled) and OB. We just started herding with them and will be going for our HIT this spring with two of our dogs. Our dogs are fantastic with our son, but a bit "too much dog" for him to start doing events with. We're not planning on buying our 4th dog for a few years as we would like to wait for our elderly dog to pass over. However, we would like to start researching now so we know what we're getting into. 

Here's another issue. My husband is really against us buying a showline shepherd. He does not want to support "the other side" (as he calls it) and abhors show line dogs. I told him he's being ignorant, after all, he cannot possibly expect a young kid (8 now, but will be older when we get our next dog) to handle a working line dog. He thinks it wont be a problem as long as we train the dog first...but that's my point. I would like our SON to be the primary handler of the dog, that includes training (obviously under our supervision). He thinks we should get a workingline shepherd or look for an entirely different breed of dog. Problem is, we don't really like any other breed (well we do, but can't agree on  one). GSD fit our lifestyle perfectly, they are the only breed that matches ALL of our criteria. So, what do you think? Is it wrong to buy a showline dog, simply because you're dedicated to working-lines? I mean, it's not like we're going to buy the first one we see. We know what we want in a dog and will not settle for less. My husband thinks it's impossible to find the dog we need within the showline type. So what do you think? Is he right, or should we think about showlines?

Maybe you could suggest another breed based on this criteria (generalized):

Highly active, must be able to keep up with the rest of us and be willing to get in motion.
Easily trained - biddable and reliable.
Medium - Large breed.
No excessive droolers.
Reserved with strangers, but approachable.
Clear in the head, not necessarily low-key and calm but not so driven they're vibrating when not working.
Athletic
Good house pet (not a dog that needs to be outside 24/7)
Short- medium coat.


We have more detailed criteria, but that is the basic list.


Looking forward to your insight,

Marg.
 

 You can PM me if you are uncomfortable with posting your opinion on the board. Thanks everyone.

There is a valuable resource when it comes to Herding, and his name is Ulf Kintzel!  He has posted here a few times.  He may be able to help you with lines he likes.

I disagree with you on the working line  part, I think many of them would be suitable.  My dogs are not rangy off the wall at all, and though  I can't tell you how they are with sheep,  they are great with horses!

I think Molly had one of her dogs in herding also.  Eichenluft Kennel, working lines mostly.

All the best in your search.  :)

There are two kennels in my area that breed GSDs, and their dogs have herding titles. The dogs have super working drives but are good around animals and kids.

One breeder is Sue LeBlond in Willington, CT. I forget her kennels name. She breeds a lot out of her male Will von Hutberg. I believe she just had two litter with him and still has pups available. Sue has very reasonable prices and Will is a deep red and black.

The other kennel is in Mass (?) You can find them if through their super Kerry vom Kirschental.

I think you're starting of with the false assumption that every German show line dog is going to somehow be "less dog" than every working line dog.  In any given litter from either there might be a couple of very driven pups and the remainder will be less so.  Given your experience with the breed, I would expect you should be able to help pick an appropriate pup for your son from either show or working line prospects.

I wouldn't dismiss the workingline GSD entirely just because the dog is for your son.  Not every WL breeder is producing man-eaters. 

In fact I would imagine that some top breeders would be relieved to have someone interested in the "calmer" puppy in the litter, the one that gets overlooked by the hard core crowd.

As far as showlines, another factor to consider is the price.  I'm amazed at the SL puppy prices nowadays.  Breeders are getting $3,000 - $5,000+ for an 8-week old baby puppy.  At that price you can buy three working line pups and keep the one that works out best and sell the others.  LOL  Not all of them get that much, but you're going to pay extra for black & red. 

Seriously, a good breeder will try his/her best to fit you up to the right puppy out of the litter, and there is always a variable amount of drive in any given litter.  You don't have to go showlines just to get that "calmer" temperament. 

I've just done a breeding between my herding titled Blackthorn's Hunter, JHD, and a very nice Sch3 showline male (Vegas son, linebred 5-2 on the good-working producer VA8 Max della Loggia dei Mercanti) who has good nerves and very strong prey drive. Hunter's a daughter of 2x Universal Sieger Alex v Eisenhaus, a Troll vh Milinda g-daughter, and is all working lines. I'm hoping for some beautiful dogs with great prey drives, great looks, high trainability and high livability. I don't yet know whether she's pregnant--it's only been two weeks.

It won't be the breeding for everyone (what is?), but I think it should make some excellent puppies with the capability to do well in a variety of endeavors--including being an active companion, schutzhund, herding, agility, SAR.

Christine
blackthornkennel.com

 Thank you for the replies and messages (I will respond to the messages when I get off of work tonight).
I have heard of Ulf Kintzel, he has the kennel "Quasliner Moor"? I will be contacting him for his opinion once we have some idea of the direction we are going.

RedSable: My husband feels the same way. He believes we can find the perfect dog within the realm we're familiar with. His argument is that regardless of the genetics, not every pup in a litter is going to be a fire-cracker, high drive dog. I agree with him on that, but I question whether it is reasonable for us to wait for such a pup. The kennels and bloodlines he is interested in have a high reputation for producing serious working dogs. He will NOT settle for less and does not want to consider a breeding program that encourages less serious dogs within the "working" community. I told him it's not feasible for us to expect "pet puppies" out of such 'intense' breeding's. He still thinks it's possible, but I have my doubts. If he would consider different bloodlines/breeders I would be more open to a dog of working lineage. I think he's forgetting that this will be (primarily) our sons dog, not his. Regardless of the dogs we currently own, our son is very young and his skills as a dog handler are just developing... I don't want to set him up to fail with a dog who is above his capabilities. That's not fair to either of them!

Keith Grossman: Yes, I agree with you. However, I was generalizing (which, I know is unfair; their are exceptions to everything). We will certainly be picking the puppy ourselves, but we'd like to make sure the dogs genetic potential does not exceed our sons abilities (too much). Obviously it all comes down to the individual pup, but I have a hard time by-passing heredity. My husband thinks we should just look at the dog as an individual, but I believe we need to look at the bigger picture, namely; genetics. This is where my husband and I cannot agree. He believes a show-line could not do the work(physically and mentally) and could potentially harm our son due to not being able to handle pressure. Unlike him, I don't believe all show-line dogs have poor temperaments/structure. I have met a few who were fantastic dogs that anyone would be proud to call their own. We both have (almost)the same concerns, but directed at different types. I'm worried that he'll make too many mistakes on a WL and will cause the dog to be frustrated. Our dogs get frustrated with him at times, but they'll just walk away (he knows to leave the dogs alone if they don't want his attention). I worry that the next WL may not be so forgiving to handler errors, especially if the dog is stimulated and in a high adrenaline situation (herding, agility trial, or even OB trial).


If we could find a WL we both agree on, I would be 100% in support of that. The dogs we have now are of West German lineage.....my husband wants to buy a Teikerhook dog or a dog from Czech lineage ( he would like to go see the kennels too). He has several dogs whom he'd like to meet and would like to get to know their progeny.....but these are intense dogs! Does anyone know of some good quality working dogs (that he wont turn his nose up to) who are known to be easily managed and controlled without over the top drives? Basically we're looking for a high energy pet that our son can take to doggy events (he feels left out and gets poutty when it's time to train or go to the club). If it's possible to find his type of dog within a working-line (without leaving too much up to chance), I'm all for it. I just assumed (I know, I know...bad!) it would be easier to find such a dog within show lines.

 

I apologize for my lack of knowledge, these dogs are more of a hobby for me.....my husband takes this shepherd thing very seriously and is 1000X more knowledgeable then I am...........I'm opinionated th

 (continued) I'm opinionated though!

I just re-read my post and I feel I'm giving the wrong image of my husband. It's not that he doesn't want to promote lower drive dogs within the WL type, he just prefers high-drive, intense dogs. He dislikes "maneaters" as much as he dislikes "weak nerved" dogs. He likes super intense dogs....but they have to be manageable and easily controlled when trained. He'll probably see these postings later and get all grumpy at me for making him sound like a goof. He's a man who knows what he wants...I'm just bad at explaining things + I know very little about this topic....I know the basics, enough to get by...but like I said, this is a hobby for me. I enjoy being active with my dogs, my husband is the one who knows what he's talking about!

 

I guess I just wanted to see if I was being unreasonable as he has been telling me that I am. We've gotten into a few rather heated debates about our next dog!

Your kid is at a good age to start with a GSD, my 6 yr old boy can work my 100 lb male and has no problems....Its up to the parents to work and show the kids the ropes on the dog. My son is very assertive and both of my GSD's will listen to him on every command. But you questions are great and i repsect that you asked they instead of jumping in and winging it... Please keep up posted on what you learn, i have learned a great deal on this site, and am very greatful with my new found respect for the breed!!!!