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by SchHBabe on 08 September 2012 - 03:09
A lot of people come to this web site to shop the ads for GSD’s for sale, and to do research on dogs and bloodlines. There is a lot of good information that can be found here, and unfortunately a lot of mis-information or outright lies.
I want to make this post to encourage the lurkers, especially the newbies, to educate themselves before plunking down that deposit on what you think is a quality, well-bred puppy. Puppy buyers, it is your responsibility to “do your homework” from accurate and authoritative sources.
EDUCATE yourself on inheritable health conditions such as hip and elbow dysplasia. VERIFY the claims made by breeders about their dogs’ breed-worthiness. UNDERSTAND the reason why GSD's are tested and titled. Not everyone agrees with these opinions but as a buyer you need to GET THE FACTS so you can make an informed decision.
A few opinions to consider...
1) This web site has a lot of correct information, but it is NOT to be taken at face value. Anyone can create a dog entry on this web site and fill out false information about pedigree, titles, hip and elbow stats, etc.
2) Although it is possible for two dysplasia-free dogs to produce puppies that turn out to be dysplastic, if a breeder intentionally breeds a dysplastic dog that is loading the genetic dice in the wrong direction. The tests were developed so that affected dogs can be removed from the breeding pool.
3) Hip/elbow dysplasia is not the only inheritable genetic condition. Some breeders may rationalize breeding a dog with diagnosed health problems with a pocket full of excuses: “dysplasia is not really genetic, it’s environmental”, “there are so few XXXXX sons in the US that I have to breed him”, “it’s the owner’s fault he got injured”, etc.
4) Some dogs diagnosed with health problems will NOT show symptoms for years. Ex.: Degenerative joint disease is an age-progressive disease. Some dogs with dysplasia will need joint replacement at 1 year old, others can live symptom free for years. Symptom-free does not mean disease-free.
5) Dysplasia can be diagnosed through X-rays of the joints from several professional organizations. Here in the US, the OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) and PennHIP (no elbow ratings), and in Germany the SV will also grade hips and elbows. Other countries have similar professional organizations. Don’t fall for the line, “my vet looked at the Xrays and she’s seen thousands” because this cannot be verified.
6) It is possible for a dog to have good hips, but dysplastic elbows, and vice versa. Elbow dysplasia is not as common in the GSD breed as hip dysplasia but it does exist and it can be tested for.
7) Not a lot of folks would choose to buy a puppy from a sire or dam diagnosed with dysplasia. Most breeders know this. Some breeders may commit a “lie of omission” – that is, advertise the good hip scores but simply fail to mention a failing elbow rating, or vice versa.
8) A responsible and ethical breeder will have complete and accurate information on their ads, web site, and can provide records from reputable professional organizations. Dog has a title? Ask to see a copy of the scorebook. Many good breeders are proud to show the proof of their dogs’ achievements and health. Do NOT rely on this web site or a breeder’s web site as the sole source of information.
9) “Police” dog? Some breeders may claim their breeding stock are working K9’s when in fact they are only “in training” or owned by a LEO. Certifying requirements vary from state to state in the US or overseas. Some police departments do not even allow their K9's to be bred. Verify the dog is really on the street.
10) Some breeders claim to “breed to SV standards”. If a breeder claims to follow the SV standards their breeding stock should be titled with SchH/IPO or a HGH (herding) title with conformation rating, breed survey, hip and elbow evaluation. Just because a breeder bought a few pricey titled dogs from Europe does NOT prove that they have “high standards” only a fat wallet. The BH is NOT a title. “Temperament Tested” is not a title. CGC neither. A dog can have a lot of acronyms behind their name and still not meet SV standards. We can debate whether or not these titles are necessary but a breeder who claims to follow a standard should DO SO.
11) The puppy buyer has the power to put disreputable breeders out of business. Once you’ve plunked down $1,600 for a puppy and fallen in love with your cute fur ball it's too late to find out that the sire had a diagnosed health condition or the dam didn’t really have a title. Don’t be “that guy” who has to come on this board and cry about how you got taken.
Vote with your wallet and support the many quality, dedicated breeders who uphold high standards and can back their claims.
Yvette
P.S. Please do not hijack this thread with your own witch hunt or personal vendetta. This discussion is intended to be about PRINCIPLES, not people. No names, no dates, no places. Keep it clean.
I want to make this post to encourage the lurkers, especially the newbies, to educate themselves before plunking down that deposit on what you think is a quality, well-bred puppy. Puppy buyers, it is your responsibility to “do your homework” from accurate and authoritative sources.
EDUCATE yourself on inheritable health conditions such as hip and elbow dysplasia. VERIFY the claims made by breeders about their dogs’ breed-worthiness. UNDERSTAND the reason why GSD's are tested and titled. Not everyone agrees with these opinions but as a buyer you need to GET THE FACTS so you can make an informed decision.
A few opinions to consider...
1) This web site has a lot of correct information, but it is NOT to be taken at face value. Anyone can create a dog entry on this web site and fill out false information about pedigree, titles, hip and elbow stats, etc.
2) Although it is possible for two dysplasia-free dogs to produce puppies that turn out to be dysplastic, if a breeder intentionally breeds a dysplastic dog that is loading the genetic dice in the wrong direction. The tests were developed so that affected dogs can be removed from the breeding pool.
3) Hip/elbow dysplasia is not the only inheritable genetic condition. Some breeders may rationalize breeding a dog with diagnosed health problems with a pocket full of excuses: “dysplasia is not really genetic, it’s environmental”, “there are so few XXXXX sons in the US that I have to breed him”, “it’s the owner’s fault he got injured”, etc.
4) Some dogs diagnosed with health problems will NOT show symptoms for years. Ex.: Degenerative joint disease is an age-progressive disease. Some dogs with dysplasia will need joint replacement at 1 year old, others can live symptom free for years. Symptom-free does not mean disease-free.
5) Dysplasia can be diagnosed through X-rays of the joints from several professional organizations. Here in the US, the OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) and PennHIP (no elbow ratings), and in Germany the SV will also grade hips and elbows. Other countries have similar professional organizations. Don’t fall for the line, “my vet looked at the Xrays and she’s seen thousands” because this cannot be verified.
6) It is possible for a dog to have good hips, but dysplastic elbows, and vice versa. Elbow dysplasia is not as common in the GSD breed as hip dysplasia but it does exist and it can be tested for.
7) Not a lot of folks would choose to buy a puppy from a sire or dam diagnosed with dysplasia. Most breeders know this. Some breeders may commit a “lie of omission” – that is, advertise the good hip scores but simply fail to mention a failing elbow rating, or vice versa.
8) A responsible and ethical breeder will have complete and accurate information on their ads, web site, and can provide records from reputable professional organizations. Dog has a title? Ask to see a copy of the scorebook. Many good breeders are proud to show the proof of their dogs’ achievements and health. Do NOT rely on this web site or a breeder’s web site as the sole source of information.
9) “Police” dog? Some breeders may claim their breeding stock are working K9’s when in fact they are only “in training” or owned by a LEO. Certifying requirements vary from state to state in the US or overseas. Some police departments do not even allow their K9's to be bred. Verify the dog is really on the street.
10) Some breeders claim to “breed to SV standards”. If a breeder claims to follow the SV standards their breeding stock should be titled with SchH/IPO or a HGH (herding) title with conformation rating, breed survey, hip and elbow evaluation. Just because a breeder bought a few pricey titled dogs from Europe does NOT prove that they have “high standards” only a fat wallet. The BH is NOT a title. “Temperament Tested” is not a title. CGC neither. A dog can have a lot of acronyms behind their name and still not meet SV standards. We can debate whether or not these titles are necessary but a breeder who claims to follow a standard should DO SO.
11) The puppy buyer has the power to put disreputable breeders out of business. Once you’ve plunked down $1,600 for a puppy and fallen in love with your cute fur ball it's too late to find out that the sire had a diagnosed health condition or the dam didn’t really have a title. Don’t be “that guy” who has to come on this board and cry about how you got taken.
Vote with your wallet and support the many quality, dedicated breeders who uphold high standards and can back their claims.
Yvette
P.S. Please do not hijack this thread with your own witch hunt or personal vendetta. This discussion is intended to be about PRINCIPLES, not people. No names, no dates, no places. Keep it clean.
by hexe on 08 September 2012 - 05:09
SchHBabe, I've only got one thing to add:
12. Don't think you can avoid having to do all the homework cited in 1-11 above by importing your own dog or pup from another country. Not only can you get just as burned, but you're going to have even less recourse than you have if you purchase domestically (and in the US, for the most part, there's precious little recourse to begin with). This board is chock-full of people who've lost thousands of dollars and received nothing to show for it, or what they did receive was not what they'd thought they were purchasing--and some of those folks were EXPERIENCED in the breed and in importing dogs...so it CAN happen to you, too.
12. Don't think you can avoid having to do all the homework cited in 1-11 above by importing your own dog or pup from another country. Not only can you get just as burned, but you're going to have even less recourse than you have if you purchase domestically (and in the US, for the most part, there's precious little recourse to begin with). This board is chock-full of people who've lost thousands of dollars and received nothing to show for it, or what they did receive was not what they'd thought they were purchasing--and some of those folks were EXPERIENCED in the breed and in importing dogs...so it CAN happen to you, too.
by Hutchins on 08 September 2012 - 14:09
13.) Once you have decided on a puppy, be sure EVERYTHING warrantied and agreed upon is written in the sales agreement contract. Unfortunately there are situations that may be arise that are not in the contract, but for the most part, all your bases are covered.
by Rik on 08 September 2012 - 15:09
babe, some very good advice.
14. Understand that the GSD is a product and a lot of the concern you read here, is at the bottom, nothing more than folks pimping their version of the product.
15. You should also understand that most dogs bred for a specific purpose may not be suitable for that purpose, and almost none will will be suitable for purposes they were not bred for, no matter the claims of their advocates.
jmo,
Rik
14. Understand that the GSD is a product and a lot of the concern you read here, is at the bottom, nothing more than folks pimping their version of the product.
15. You should also understand that most dogs bred for a specific purpose may not be suitable for that purpose, and almost none will will be suitable for purposes they were not bred for, no matter the claims of their advocates.
jmo,
Rik
by starrchar on 08 September 2012 - 18:09
Great tips!
16. Many breeders offer a health guarantee. This does NOT mean that your pup will never have any health issues. Even with health testing and the best of intentions two healthy parents can produce pups with health issues. A health guarantee typically means the breeder will offer a replacement pup in the event a pup has a proven genetic disease or health issue such as hip dysplasia (be sure to carefully read the contract). Make sure the breeder does not require the puppy owner to return the "defective" puppy in order to receive the replacement pup. This is emotional blackmail.
16. Many breeders offer a health guarantee. This does NOT mean that your pup will never have any health issues. Even with health testing and the best of intentions two healthy parents can produce pups with health issues. A health guarantee typically means the breeder will offer a replacement pup in the event a pup has a proven genetic disease or health issue such as hip dysplasia (be sure to carefully read the contract). Make sure the breeder does not require the puppy owner to return the "defective" puppy in order to receive the replacement pup. This is emotional blackmail.
by SchHBabe on 12 September 2012 - 02:09
I thought there would be more debate on this post, but apparently not. I suppose that's a good thing that no one is coming out to say "oh yes it's OK to breed dysplastic dogs and not tell the puppy buyers..."
Unfortunately, that does happen.
And yes, "imports" can be quite the joke. I used to live in a small town that decided to get an explosives detection dog, which had to be an import, because... you know... imports are better. What they got was a runt of a GSD that couldn't find a pound of black powder sitting behind the toilet. That dog died at 5 years of age from cancer after never having made a single legit find. Ooopsie. Sorry, taxpayers.
But I digress.... I just hate to see puppy buyers getting "taken" by people who claim to have high standards but instead knowingly breed dogs with diagnosed health problems. Some people really think the information on this web site is gospel truth. Not so!
Yvette
Unfortunately, that does happen.
And yes, "imports" can be quite the joke. I used to live in a small town that decided to get an explosives detection dog, which had to be an import, because... you know... imports are better. What they got was a runt of a GSD that couldn't find a pound of black powder sitting behind the toilet. That dog died at 5 years of age from cancer after never having made a single legit find. Ooopsie. Sorry, taxpayers.
But I digress.... I just hate to see puppy buyers getting "taken" by people who claim to have high standards but instead knowingly breed dogs with diagnosed health problems. Some people really think the information on this web site is gospel truth. Not so!
Yvette
by Chaz Reinhold on 12 September 2012 - 02:09
17. Grab the sack
by hexe on 12 September 2012 - 03:09
But...but....but Chaz, what if I'm looking at a bitch puppy?
by Sunsilver on 12 September 2012 - 03:09
Many ads on here say things like champion bloodlines/great-grandson of World Sieger/pedigree packed full of VA rated dogs!!
In actual fact, that doesn't mean very much. Breeders breed dogs, not pedigrees. In every litter, there will be a couple of potential conformation show dogs or schutzhund dogs, and the rest will be pets. Don't buy a pup with a great pedigree, and expect you're going to get something that will win you a shelf full of hardware and ribbons.
And personally, I would never buy a pup unless I could check it out in person, or have someone I knew very well and trusted make the selection for me.
Read contracts carefully. Most breeders will only refund money or provide a replacement pup in the event of crippling dysplasia. If the hips are mildly or moderately dysplastic, well, too bad. Congratulations, you now have yourself an expensive pet, or one that may be able to do schutzhund, but should never be bred.
In actual fact, that doesn't mean very much. Breeders breed dogs, not pedigrees. In every litter, there will be a couple of potential conformation show dogs or schutzhund dogs, and the rest will be pets. Don't buy a pup with a great pedigree, and expect you're going to get something that will win you a shelf full of hardware and ribbons.
And personally, I would never buy a pup unless I could check it out in person, or have someone I knew very well and trusted make the selection for me.
Read contracts carefully. Most breeders will only refund money or provide a replacement pup in the event of crippling dysplasia. If the hips are mildly or moderately dysplastic, well, too bad. Congratulations, you now have yourself an expensive pet, or one that may be able to do schutzhund, but should never be bred.
by Chaz Reinhold on 12 September 2012 - 03:09
Hexe, then grab the sire's. Genetic!
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